Live Blog: Kwame Kilpatrick Trial Day 37 - Boston News, Weather, Sports | FOX 25 | MyFoxBoston

Live Blog: Kwame Kilpatrick Trial Day 37

Detroit (MyFoxDetroit) -

"all rise" we're back in session.  But Van Dusen is not in the room.  The Judge Edmunds says it sounds like we're snake bit, Van Duesen had a fall during the break, she's likely okay but had to go to the hospital.  Judge Edmunds says we're done for the day and excuses the jury.  It sounds like the attorneys are going to talk about upcoming witnesses after the jury leaves but they've shut own the  feed.

I guess we'll have to catch the wrap up from M.L. Elrick at 5 and 6 on Fox 2 news tonight to find out.  Talk to you all tomorrow.


IT appears that Susan Van Dusen has fallen and broken her nose. We're getting reports down here in the first floor overflow room that she tripped on a rug.  I'm told the nurse was called in.  We're waiting to see the judge will call a halt to the proceedings today.


That was a donnybrook.  Kathleen McCann showed a slightly different side of her personality this morning, blasting back at Susan Van Dusen, calling Bobby an actor, saying it was self-serving theater and not, as Van Duesen tried to make out, that he was fighting for his employees.  McCann even took it a step further and said Bobby was out for Bobby and no one else.  Who knew that the soft spoken, petite blond, with eloquent manners was hiding inside an 800 pound gorilla.


And we're on a break, 20 minutes.


Van Duesen now asking if McCann remembers a Dec. 25th meeting between Oszust and Ferguson, she's showing an email from the Insituform guy to McCann.  asks if she remembers this.  McCann says I do.

It says Bobby seemed eager to get his people working for us... he had some issues with some legal language in our proposed labor lease agreement that he indicated would be communicated to us by next week... but was concerned that it not be a pass through.

McCann says they were talking about finally making progress... and then refers to a line that VAn Duesen didn't"' read about adding value.

Van Duesen says but it does say pass through.  McCann says it was self serving theater, that over many years he wanted money for not doing work.  Says she has a challenge accepting what he says at face value.

VAn Duesen says you doubt his pride in his company.  Chutkow objects, says she never said anything about his pride.  Judge sustains.

Take another whack at it.  McCann answers that she thinks Bobby often said things for effect.

Van Duesen asks if she had never dealt with anyone like Bobby.  McCann says they never worked with someone who wanted 1 percent of the first 35 million on a sinkhole project, never worked with someone so unreasonable... makes yet another speech about how bad Bobby was.

And Van Duesen asks for a break.  If this were a prize fight: Van Duesen was on the ropes and just barely saved by the bell.


Van Duesen now showing some of McCann's notes from Dec 2 2002.  This was also a government exhibit but the prosecutors didn't use it.

ASks if McCann recalls if this was a meeting with Oszust from INland about Bobby.  McCAnn says this is probably from a phone call.

Van Duesen says the first line says Ferguson is difficult to work with. McCann says I think we've already established that.]

Van Duesen says but he has a habit of yelling when he talks.  McCann says she doesn't recall that, he was usually pretty polite.

Van Duesen says but  he was fighting for his employees to get work.  McCAnn says no, he wasn't fighting for anyone but himself.

Van Duesen says but it he's fighting for his company.  McCann says what he was fighting for was unreasonable.

Van Duesen asks but he didn't agree with you.  McCann says clearly.

Chutkow objects says this has already been converted.  Judge agrees.


VAn Duesen asks if Bobby was fighting to do actual work and not be a pass through company.   McCann explodes.   "Absolutely not! Mr. Ferguson's problem was of his own making.  He put our company at risk... we could have lost the contract... he may have been doing it on purpose... we knew we were going to have to tell this story... we took notes.

Van Duesen just let's her make a speech.

Van Duesen asks in your mind?  McCann, exasperated says," yes, that was the reality we had in our minds.

Van Duesen asks if Bobby had another reality in his mind.   McCann says he sure did have another reality in his mind.


Van Duesen now showing an email that says Insituform wanted to transfer a crew to Ferguson's payroll.  McCann says they were trying to bolster Ferguson's line crew capacity.

Van Duesen raises her voice and says that's not what I asked, I didn't ask you to explain the reason I just asked if that's what it says.  McCAnn lowers her voice, in the manner of a teacher trying to get an angry student to calm down, and says that's what the language of the memo  says.

Van Duesen says you were worried about meeting your minority goals.  McCann says that's right they were worried about it, very worried.  the  had to get the contract negotiated.

VAn Duesen says on your time table not his.  McCann says yes.

McCann says Bobby's insistence on some things were outside the scope of the usual sub contractor agreement.  She says Bobby was not being reasonable.

McCann says there were basic conditions but she couldn't get Bobby to agree on them, but he eventually did.

Van Duesen asks if that's her opinion how a contractor should act.  McCann say anyone with experience of that type of work would reasonably expect what she was expecting.

Couple of important points here.  McCann says that the stuff Bobby was "PUSHING back" ON, as Van Duesen called it, was eventually put into the contract.  And, Bobby had issues with insurance and bonding that most sub contractors would have already had in place.


VAn Duesen now showing a memo that says they wanted to make Ferguson a pure pass through but the insurance company wouldn't let them.  McCAnn says Bobby's own insurance had to be used on this agreement.  This is a memo from Insituform to her.

McCann says Van Duesen is mis interpreting this,  It's an insurance issue, now a business pass through.

Van Duesen says she says it means Insituform was going to be putting their employees on Ferguson's company.  That they're Insituform employees solely for the purpose of this contract.  McCann says once they're on Ferguson's payroll they're his employees.

Van Duesen says but when the contract ends those employees go back to the mother company.  McCann says that's not always the case, it depends.

VAn Duesen says Bobby wouldn't need those employees after the contract needed.  McCann says you don't no, you can't tell what he would need, this is to build up his employee base.

VAn Duesen says but you don't have a crystal ball you don't know what will happen.  Chutkow jumps up, says this is argumentative.  Judge sustains.


Van Duesen now asking about McCann's meeting with Bobby on Mackinaw Island, did they talk about hard numbers.  McCann says correct.

ASks if it's not unusual for a business man to want to make a profit.  McCann says Bobby wanted to 3 percent of the $50 million which meant that he had to do $10 million dollars of work to make that much profit.  And that was fine with them if He actually did the work. (which McCann makes it sound like he wasn't really interested in.)

Van Duesen asks if he had the capability to do the work. McCann says yes.


Van Duesen asks if Williams was going to be paid and then pay Inland employees with that money it's a pass through company.  mCCann says that is not what was going to happen counselor, I don't know how many ways to say it.

Van Duesen says well Bobby did Ford Field and other big projects.  McCann says he told them that.

Van Duesen now showing her a pamphlet, asks if Bobby gave her that at the beginning of their meeting.   McCanns says it looks vaguely familiar and she may have seen it.

Van Duesen says Ms McCAnn, if you would just... now she goes over the bench and flips through the pamphlet to the page she wants.  McCAnn says thank you.

She asks if she sees key projects listed on the page.  Asks about MGM Grand CAsino, Tiger stadium, Ford field, and lastly Compuware.  McCann says yes.

Van Duesen asks if these are impressive projects in your opinion. McCann says "sure."

The judge is now saying you've made me second guess my decision to admit this.  She isn't familiar with it.  Says you can't just read this into the record.  VAn Duesen says it lead to the next question.  Judge says she'll allow it with reservations.

Van Duesen reads a long list of equipment.  ASks if she sees it.  McCann says "I do"  then adds that it depends on the job, says he may indeed have had to lease equipment from Inland, but she graciously gives Van Duesen the concession that it is an impressive list of equipment.

Van Duesen asks if Bobby refusing to be a Pass-through was the reason for continuing negotiations.  McCann says she would not agree with that.  Asks if Bobby was going to be a sub to Insituform as well as Inland.  McCann says yes.  VAn Duesen asks if it took months.  McCann says many, many months.

Van Duesen says she reason was because Bobby wanted the term of the contract to include his employees.  Chutkow objects but is over ruled.

Van Duesen says the subject of these back and forth negotiations involved the use of equipment, employees, material, insurance, who was going to pay the union dues. Correct.

Says it really related to everything that needed to be negotiated.  McCann says everything needed to be negotiated, yes.

Van Duesen says Bobby didn't want to act as a revenue stream participant.  McCann says they had a big problem from their perspective, says Bobby didn't want to sign the regular sub contractor agreement they usually sign with subs.

Van Duesen says Bobby wanted a profit on his part.  McCann says they wanted Bobby to work and make a profit.

McCann says Bobby wanted 3 percent of the 50 million project not just on his part of the work.

The Judge says maybe you could ask the questions separately, you asked two questions.

VAn Duesen then says Bobby asked for 3 percent.  McCann says yes.


Van Duesen taking a different tack now.  Says Bobby expressed that he didn't need mentoring.  McCann says true.  mMcCann says those types of comments were self serving theater.  Whether those things proved out can be debated.  Basically she's saying it was unclear if Bobby really wanted to do the work or jugs collect the money.  Van Duesen is talking about Bobby being a proud black man.

Van Duesen says it because Bobby didn't need it did he.  McCann says she would agree that he didn't think he would need it.

VAn Duesen says that's not what you were expecting when you walked into the meeting with Bobby.  McCann says she didn't have any expectations when she walked into the meeting.  Says it was good to hear he had equipment and employees  and they were going to try to figure out what work to give him.

McCann says if he wanted to make $20 million on a contract they were going to work to get it.


All right, court is in session and Susan VAn Duesen is asking Kathleen McCann about the goals of giving work to Detroit BAsed and Headquartered businesses.  MCcann says she's aware of all that.

Van Dues ed is asking it it's not surprising that Bobby's name would come up because he  was the largest minority contractor at the time.  McCann says she never heard of him, wasn't aware he was the largest minority contractor.

Van Duesen says she doesn't understand her answer and MCCann says maybe if  you could be more specific.

Van Duesen asks about Charlie Williams, that's the contractor that got Kicked out of the contract after Tony Soave met with the Mayor.

VAn Duesen tells McCann Williams didn't have an office.  McCann says that wrong, he did have an office.  Van Duesen presses her and McCann says she doesn't know when he opened the office.

Now Van Duesen is pressing her on that topic of employees and equipment.  MCCann says the company was going to be built up over time.  The CEO is starting to come out now, she doesn't sound nearly as meek as she did on Friday.

Van Duesen says he didn't have an office, employees, or equipment, it was a pass-through company.  McCann says tying Williams to that description did not reflect the facts at that time.

VAn Duesen asks about Minority fronts.  McCann says she's aware of minority fronts and she didn't want anything to do with those kinds of company's.

VAn Duesen says minority fronts degraded the integrity of the DBH and DHH system.  McCann says that's true.

Van Duesen asks if she would agree that a pass through company ... McCann says she can't agree with that, they could build there own company and get their own equipment.  Van Duesen says it's not likely.  McCann says it depends on who you're working with.

VAn Duesen asks if Inland had no intent to utilize it's employees under his payroll.  McCAnn says no, she can't agree with that.  She says Inland actually transferred their employees, sacrificed good employees, to help Williams MPS company.  And he paid them.

VAn Duesen now asks if Soave owned 48% of MPS.  McCann says he was an  investor.  Chutkow objects and says hey, 51% ownership means controlling interest.  Judge sustains.


Bobby Ferguson and his attorneys made it into the court house a few minutes ago, Harold Gurewitz also made it through security, haven't seen Kwame Kilpatrick yet.  We still don't have a feed from the court room.


The defendants are not in the court room yet.  As far as we can tell only Bernard Kilpatrick has made it through the line and into the building.  New rules were put into place last week, only court employees can use the south entrance.  They used to let the attorneys and defendants in that door, along with journalists on immigration days.  Now everyone has to use the north door and the wait has gone from a few minutes to a half hour or more.  I'll let you know when the trial is back in session.


Good morning from the very busy Theodore Levin Federal Court House in downtown Detroit.  It's immigration day once again, and a jury is being seated so the line  is once again out the door.

Ken Martinek is Senior Producer-Investigations for Fox 2 News.  You can contact him at

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